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                      科學美國人(翻譯):科學書籍講座第1集:魚類的諸多??奧秘 2021.08.07

                      Welcome to Scientific American’s Science of Summer Reading. I’m your host Deboki Chakravarti. Sometimes on Science Talk, we have conversations with authors about their books, but this series is going to be a little different. What I love as a reader is seeing how books can end up feeling like they're in conversation with each other, even when they’re not written to do that.

                      歡迎來到科學美國人的暑期閱讀科學。我是您的主持人德博基·查克拉瓦蒂 (Deboki Chakravarti)。有時在 Science Talk 上,我們會與作者討論他們的書,但這個系列會有所不同。我喜歡作為一個讀者看到書可怎么收場感覺就像他們在談話對方,即使他們'再沒有寫這樣做。

                      So for the month of August, I’ll be taking on two science books at a time and just chat with you a bit about them. I’ll be talking through what the authors made me think and feel. Maybe you’ve read these books yourself. Maybe you’ve even had some of the same feelings after reading them or maybe not. 

                      And if you haven’t read them, well, maybe this Science Book Talk will inspire you to.

                      因此,對于八月份,我'會被同時服用兩種科學書籍,只是跟你聊他們一點。我'會是通過什么作者讓我的想法和感受說話。也許你'已經自己讀這些書。也許你' VE甚至閱讀它們或許不是之后有一些同樣的感受。如果你的避風港' T上讀他們,好吧,也許科學書籍講話將激勵你。 

                      Today I’ve got two books about the mysteries of fish. Some of these mysteries are scientific; some of them are existential. But they all become quite personal in the hands of the authors, raising more questions about the how we apply the lessons we learn from nature to our own lives.



                      Prologue: The books (and fishes) in question


                      The first book is The Book of Eels, written by Patrik Svensson and translated from Swedish to English by Agnes Broomé. In it, Svensson details just how little we truly know about the eel, a creature whose life cycle is so dramatic that even the more odd attempts to explain their reproduction—like Aristotle's insistence that they must just be borne out of mud—feel mundane next to the eel's reality.

                      第一本書是《鰻魚之書》,由帕特里克·斯文森 (Patrik Svensson) 撰寫,并由艾格尼絲·布魯姆 (Agnes Broomé) 從瑞典語翻譯成英語。在其中,斯文森詳細說明了我們對鰻魚的真正了解有多少,這種生物的生命周期是如此戲劇化,以至于即使是更奇怪的嘗試來解釋它們的繁殖——比如亞里士多德堅持認為它們必須只是從泥土中生出來——接下來都會讓人覺得很平凡到鰻魚的現實。

                      The second book is Why Fish Don't Exist by Lulu Miller. The book traces the life of David Starr Jordan, a taxonomist who collected fish upon fish in his attempt to categorize the world. Miller documents the dramatic moments that punctuate the timeline of Jordan's work, from deaths to natural disasters to even a potential poisoning. 

                      第二本書是 Lulu Miller 的《為什么魚不存在》。這本書追溯了大衛·斯塔爾·喬丹 (David Starr Jordan) 的生平,他是一位分類學家,他在嘗試對世界進行分類時收集了一條又一條的魚。米勒記錄了打斷喬丹工作時間表的戲劇性時刻,從死亡到自然災害,甚至是潛在的中毒。 

                      Both Svensson and Miller approach their subjects with their own personal stories in tow. But at the center of it all is fish.


                      Chapter 1: The Mystery, Scientific

                      第 1 章:奧秘、科學

                      The scope of the mysteries for these books is different. In Why Fish Don't Exist, the question driving its central character of David Starr Jordan is really the question all fish—and in turn, of all animals. There are many, many animals that we call “fish,” so how, in turn can we categorize them?


                      The love of naming and categorizing starts young for Jordan, with studies of stars and maps and flower. But it becomes a much more concerted and fish-centric pursuit in 1873 when he ventures out to an island off the coast of Massachusetts. He traveled to this island specifically to learn from Louis Agassiz, a naturalist who saw taxonomy as a scientific inquiry into the traits that were most important to god.

                      喬丹對命名和分類的熱愛從年輕時就開始了,他對星星、地圖和花卉進行了研究。但在 1873 年,當他冒險前往馬薩諸塞州海岸附近的一個島嶼時,這變得更加一致和以魚類為中心的追求。他前往這個島嶼是為了向博物學家路易斯·阿加西學習,他將分類學視為對上帝最重要的特征的科學探究。

                      But as Miller notes from the start of her book, the work of a taxonomist is, in a sense, to “fight Chaos.” She writes, “He was a taxonomist, the kind of scientist charged with bringing order to the Chaos of the earth by uncovering the shape of the great tree of life….” And it's this sense of Chaos and Jordan's quest to bring order to it that drives the narrative. After all, this is a man who collected thousands of fish in an attempt to understand what separates and divides them, and to understand a hierarchy of nature formed by evolution.

                      但正如米勒在她的書開頭所指出的那樣,從某種意義上說,分類學家的工作是“對抗混沌”。她寫道:“他是一名分類學家,是那種負責通過揭示生命之樹的形狀來為地球的混沌帶來秩序的科學家……” 正是這種混沌感和喬丹對秩序的追求推動了敘事。畢竟,這是一個收集了數千條魚的人,試圖了解是什么將它們分開和劃分,并了解進化形成的自然等級。

                      Of course, the title of the book introduces the question that will linger in the background of that mystery. After all, with every page documenting fish samples and the seemingly catastrophic circumstances of earthquake and fire that Jordan overcomes in his pursuit of order, the title chases: why don't fish exist?


                      In contrast, the mystery of The Book of Ells is much narrower in scope. This isn't about all fish. It's just about one: the eel, slippery in our cultural imagery and scientific understanding.


                      In a way, the book begins with the answer before it even fully lays out the questions. The first sentence begins with, “This is how the birth of the eel comes about….” And from there, Svensson lays out the complicated life cycle of the European eel as it travels from the ill-defined borders of the Sargasso Sea and goes through its own physical shifts, from willow leaf to glass eel to yellow eel to silver eel. Its journey will take it from its saltwater origins to freshwater abodes until its ready to reproduce and travels back to its oceanic birthplace to do so. 

                      在某種程度上,這本書甚至在完全列出問題之前就先給出了答案。第一句開頭是:“鰻魚的誕生就是這樣……” 從那里,Svensson 展示了歐洲鰻魚復雜的生命周期,因為它從馬尾藻海的不明確邊界出發,經歷了自己的身體變化,從柳葉到玻璃鰻,再到黃鰻再到銀鰻。它的旅程將把它從它的咸水起源帶到淡水棲息地,直到它準備好繁殖并返回它的海洋發源地這樣做。

                      So before we even get to know what the eel question is, it seems like we have an answer. It's clear that the answer is quite involved, and so it becomes easier to forgive the historical figures we learn about who struggle with what should be a seemingly simple question: how are baby eels made?


                      And this is a question with a notable list of askers. Aristotle's best guess in the fourth century BCE was that eels emerge into existence when rainwater meets dry earth, a theory borne out of what he could see and what he could not. He could see eels seeming to come out of nowhere from freshly rained-upon ponds. He couldn 't see any reproductive organs or eggs inside the eels when he attempted to find them. 

                      這是一個有很多提問者的問題。亞里士多德在公元前 4 世紀的最佳猜測是,當雨水遇到干燥的土壤時,鰻魚就會出現,這一理論基于他能看到的和不能看到的。他可以看到鰻魚似乎是從剛下過雨的池塘里不知從哪兒冒出來的。當他試圖找到鰻魚時,他看不到鰻魚內的任何生殖器官或卵。

                      It wasn't until the 19th century that scientists were able to find an eel with developed eggs and reproductive organs, and even then it became difficult to find other eels to confirm the discovery. A young Sigmund Freud made his own attempts before giving up and moving on to other fields.

                      直到 19 世紀,科學家們才能夠找到一種卵和生殖器官已經發育的鰻魚,即便如此,也很難找到其他鰻魚來證實這一發現。年輕的西格蒙德·弗洛伊德 (Sigmund Freud) 在放棄并轉向其他領域之前做出了自己的嘗試。

                      At every step of the scientific journey that Svensson describes, learning more about the eel only makes it more mysterious, like we're asymptotically approaching some sort of understanding of where the eel comes from that is always going to be just out of our reach. 

                      在 Svensson 描述的科學旅程的每一步,更多地了解鰻魚只會讓它變得更加神秘,就像我們正在逐漸接近某種鰻魚來自哪里的理解,而這總是我們無法企及的。 

                      We'll talk more about finding the personal in these scientific mysterious after this word from our sponsor.


                      [Ad Begins]

                      Megan Hall: Each year the Cancer Community Awards, sponsored by AstraZeneca, present the Catalyst for Care Award. This award recognizes an individual or organization who is making a patient's experience as easy as possible during an extraordinarily difficult time. In 2020, Jill Kincaid received the award for her work as the Founder and CEO of Chemo Buddies, a non-profit that provides support to patients going through chemotherapy.

                      Megan Hall:每年由阿斯利康贊助的癌癥社區獎都會頒發 Catalyst for Care 獎。該獎項旨在表彰在極其困難的時期盡可能簡化患者體驗的個人或組織。2020 年,吉爾·金凱德 (Jill Kincaid) 因其作為 Chemo Buddies 的創始人兼首席執行官的工作而獲得該獎項,這是一家為接受化療的患者提供支持的非營利組織。

                      As we prepared for this year's awards, Scientific American Custom Media reconnected with Jill, to hear more about what's happened since she received the award.


                      Welcome, Jill Kincaid, I'm so excited to have a chance to talk with you about what you've been up to for the past year.


                      Jill Kincaid: It's a pleasure to be here.

                      Jill Kincaid: 很高興來到這里。

                      Hall: For people who don't know your story, will you briefly explain what Chemo Buddies is and what inspired you to start it?

                      Hall: 對于那些不了解您的故事的人,您能否簡要介紹一下 Chemo Buddies 是什么以及是什么激發了您開始它的靈感?

                      Kincaid: I was with my sister who had a reocurrence of breast cancer, and this time around, we knew there was not going to be a cure. And I told her, you cannot go through this alone. And so I started going with her to all her treatments, and there's just so many things about cancer world you do not know or understand until you're immersed in it.

                      金凱德: 我和我姐姐在一起,她的乳腺癌復發了,這一次,我們知道沒有治愈方法。我告訴她,你不能獨自經歷這些。所以我開始和她一起去接受她所有的治療,關于癌癥世界的事情太多了,直到你沉浸其中,你才知道或理解。

                      So while we were sitting there in chemo, we wrote this program called Chemo Buddies that would bring volunteers into the treatment room to help just pass the day with the patients and get them anything they may need. We wrote this program and in August of 2011, I founded it in the state of Indiana, and it's been non-stop ever since.

                      因此,當我們坐在那里接受化療時,我們編寫了一個名為 Chemo Buddies 的程序,它將把志愿者帶到治療室,幫助患者度過一天,并為他們提供他們可能需要的任何東西。我們編寫了這個程序,并且在 2011 年 8 月,我在印第安納州創建了它,從那時起它就一直不間斷。

                      Hall: What did it mean to you to win the Catalyst for Care Award?

                      Hall: 獲得 Catalyst for Care 獎對您來說意味著什么?

                      Kincaid: In a way it was just validation that what we do matters and is important. That somebody else, some really great organizations thought what we were doing mattered and had value. And I knew that internally, but boy, is it nice for somebody like that to tell you good job. And we didn't know it at the time that we were going to have a major pandemic, but it saved us in so many ways.

                      Kincaid: 從某種意義上說,這只是證明我們所做的事情很重要并且很重要。其他人,一些真正偉大的組織認為我們所做的事情很重要并且有價值。我在內部知道這一點,但是男孩,這樣的人告訴你干得好是不是很好。當時我們并不知道我們將要發生一場大流行病,但它在很多方面拯救了我們。

                      Hall: In what ways?

                      霍爾: 通過什么方式?

                      Kincaid: Well, for starters, financially, it saved us. There was a cash reward that came with this honor. And with COVID being COVID, everybody was hunkered down at home this past year, and none of our normal contributors were able to make donations. We were really struggling financially, so that was huge, and to be able to keep our employees on, that was huge.

                      金凱德: 嗯,首先,在經濟上,它拯救了我們。伴隨這一榮譽而來的是現金獎勵。隨著 COVID 成為 COVID,去年每個人都呆在家里,我們的正常捐助者都無法捐款。我們在財務上真的很掙扎,所以這是巨大的,而且能夠留住我們的員工,這是巨大的。

                      Hall: In what other ways did the award affect your work?

                      霍爾: 該獎項在哪些其他方面影響了您的工作?

                      Kincaid: Well, for ten years, I've had a goal of opening a wig shop in honor of my sister, because that was one of the most traumatic parts of her journey. And since I had a little extra time on my hands, I converted an office in our building to become a very posh little boutique, where patients can come in by appointment, so it's only them and they have complete privacy. And we help them find a wig. All at no charge. And I...I'm getting a little choked up because, I know she would be so proud of me, she would be so happy this is happening.

                      金凱德: 嗯,十年來,我的目標是開一家假發店來紀念我姐姐,因為那是她旅程中最痛苦的部分之一。因為我手頭有一點額外的時間,我把我們大樓里的一間辦公室改造成一個非常豪華的小精品店,病人可以預約進來,所以只有他們,他們有完全的隱私。我們幫助他們找到假發。全部免費。我……我有點哽咽,因為,我知道她會為我感到驕傲,她會很高興發生這種情況。

                      Hall: If your sister Karen were here, what do you think she would say?

                      霍爾: 如果你姐姐凱倫在這里,你覺得她會說什么?

                      Kincaid: What took you so long? Because she had such a terrible experience. This was really something she talked about a lot that she wanted to do, and I think she'd give me a big hug and say, well done.

                      金凱德: 你怎么花了這么長時間?因為她有過如此可怕的經歷。這真的是她說了很多她想做的事情,我想她會給我一個大大的擁抱并說,做得好。

                      Hall: That's great!  So it sounds like Chemo Buddies has started an entirely new program as a result of the award.

                      霍爾: 太好了!因此,聽起來 Chemo Buddies 已經啟動了一個全新的計劃,因為該獎項。

                      Kincaid: Well, actually two new programs


                      Hall: Ah, what else?

                      霍爾: 啊,還有什么?

                      Kincaid: The hospitals got together, did a study in our community on what is the number one thing that prevents patients from successfully completing chemo. And it turned out to be transportation. And so we launched, this past month, a program called Shuttle Buddies. If they don't have transportation, then we will provide it for them, and at no charge.

                      Kincaid: 醫院聚在一起,在我們的社區中進行了一項研究,研究阻止患者成功完成化療的首要因素是什么。原來是交通。所以我們在上個月推出了一個名為 Shuttle Buddies 的計劃。如果他們沒有交通工具,那么我們將為他們提供,并且不收取任何費用。

                      Hall: Just to change subjects a little bit, it’s my understanding that you were a judge for the awards this year. Without giving anything away, what struck you about the nominees this year?

                      霍爾: 只是稍微改變一下主題,我的理解是你是今年獎項的評委。在不透露任何信息的情況下,今年的提名者有什么讓您印象深刻的嗎?

                      Kincaid: Oh, there is a wonderful pool of nominations. There are so many people doing exciting things. Ninety-nine percent of the applicants are working night and day for what they're doing. Not because it's a job, not because they're getting paid. The people that are drawn to this field want to make a difference. So how do you rule anybody out from winning? It's hard.

                      金凱德: 哦,有很多提名。有很多人在做令人興奮的事情。99% 的申請者都在為他們所做的事情夜以繼日地工作。不是因為這是一份工作,也不是因為他們得到報酬。被這個領域吸引的人們想要有所作為。那么你如何排除任何人獲勝?這個很難。

                      Hall: So after a really tough year, what are you looking forward to? What gives you hope?

                      霍爾: 那么在經歷了非常艱難的一年之后,你期待什么?什么給了你希望?

                      Kincaid: I'm really excited about getting Karen's Wig Shop up and running. I'm really excited that we have the opportunity to offer transportation to patients so that they can keep their regular appointments and have more successful outcomes. And both of those things probably would not have happened without this award.

                      Kincaid: 我真的很高興讓 Karen's Wig Shop 開始運營。我真的很高興我們有機會為患者提供交通服務,這樣他們就可以保持常規預約并獲得更成功的結果。如果沒有這個獎項,這兩件事可能都不會發生。

                      Hall: Well, Jill Kincaid, it has been such a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much for telling me about what you've been up to the past year.

                      霍爾: 嗯,吉爾·金凱德,很高興和你交談。非常感謝你告訴我你過去一年的情況。

                      Kincaid: Oh, my pleasure.

                      金凱德: 哦,我的榮幸。

                      Hall: Jill Kincaid is the Founder and CEO of Chemo Buddies. In 2020, she received the Catalyst for Care Award from the Cancer Community Awards, part of AstraZeneca Your Cancer program. Your Cancer brings together the community that is working to drive meaningful change in cancer care. This podcast was produced by Scientific American custom media and made possible through the support of AstraZeneca’s Your Cancer Program.

                      Hall:  Jill Kincaid 是 Chemo Buddies 的創始人兼首席執行官。2020 年,她獲得了癌癥社區獎頒發的 Catalyst for Care 獎,這是 AstraZeneca Your Cancer 計劃的一部分。Your Cancer 將致力于推動癌癥護理有意義變革的社區聚集在一起。該播客由《科學美國人》定制媒體制作,并在阿斯利康“您的癌癥計劃”的支持下成為可能。

                      And we’re back with more Science Book Talk.


                      Chapter 2: The Mystery, Made Personal

                      第 2 章:個人的奧秘

                      If Miller’s book centers around order, then Svensson’s centers around questions of origin. And those are questions of science, but they’re also incredibly personal questions—ones that the authors themselves explore.


                      Interestingly, for both authors, this personal exploration heavily involves their fathers. Maybe it’s only fitting. After all, as Svensson writes, “A person seeking the origin of something is also seeking his own origin. Is that a reasonable statement?


                      Throughout The Book of Eels, Svensson alternates between the history of the eel and vignettes of fishing trips he took with his father as they attempt to capture eels themselves. These stories are a return to his own origins, and they contain elements that parallel what we see in the eels. There are stories and questions around the compulsions and lessons we pass on through generations.


                      And who better to embody the ambiguities of familial connections than the mysterious eel, who knows somehow to return to some distant somewhere to do something—all of which remains as vague and unknown to us as perhaps our own personal compulsions do, even when we can trace them through our own family history.


                      For Miller, the lesson into chaos and order begins on a family trip not far from the island that inspired David Starr Jordan to take up ichthyology. She’s seven and asking her father about the meaning of life, and he explains that, “as special as you might feel, you are no different than an ant. A bit bigger, maybe, but no more significant.” It’s a lesson on the lack of order in the universe, on the inherent Chaos of it all. And it’s a lesson often repeated in its shorter equivalent throughout the book, “You don’t matter.

                      對于米勒來說,混亂和秩序的教訓始于離島不遠的一次家庭旅行,啟發了大衛·斯塔爾·喬丹 (David Starr Jordan) 從事魚類學。她七歲,問她父親生命的意義,他解釋說,“盡管你可能覺得很特別,但你和一只螞蟻沒有什么不同??赡軙笠稽c,但不會更重要?!?nbsp;這是關于宇宙中缺乏秩序的教訓,關于這一切的內在混沌。這是整本書中經常用較短的等價物重復的一個教訓,“你不重要。

                      The purpose of the lesson is not necessarily a cold insignificance. In fact, its meant as the opposite when it comes from her father, who abides by it as a form a freedom when experiencing the world, but who also sees that just because we don’t matter, doesn’t meant we need to treat each other like we don’t. 


                      But it’s one thing to learn about Chaos, and another thing altogether to experience it. And to accept the existence of Chaos is to also accept a world where people respond to it different. And as Miller documents her own challenges as a teenager and later with the mess of a relationship ended, Chaos becomes not the source of joy that it is for her father, but rather a thing to be overcome. And who better to learn from than Jordan, who both scientifically attempts to defy it, and personally pushes through with his own optimistic shield?

                      但是了解 Chaos 是一回事,體驗它又是另一回事。而接受混沌的存在,也就接受了一個人們對它做出不同反應的世界。當米勒記錄她十幾歲時面臨的挑戰,后來隨著一段混亂的關系結束,混亂不再成為她父親的快樂源泉,而是一個需要克服的東西。誰能比喬丹更好地學習,他既科學地試圖反抗它,又親自帶著自己的樂觀盾牌挺過去?

                      Chapter 3: The Limits

                      第 3 章:限制

                      It turns out that perhaps Jordan is not such a good avatar for persistence. I sometimes feel this sense of dread when learning about nineteenth and 20th century scientists, particularly those who studied genetics and taxonomy. It’s the question always lingering in the back of my mind: was this person a eugenicist?

                      事實證明,或許喬丹并不是那么好的堅持的化身。在了解 19 世紀和 20 世紀的科學家,尤其是那些研究遺傳學和分類學的科學家時,我有時會感到這種恐懼感。這是一個一直縈繞在我腦海中的問題:這個人是優生學家嗎?

                      In the case of Jordan, the answer is yes. And Miller confronts this head on, willing to grapple with the fact that the man she has been studying as an avatar for resilience in the face of Chaos was himself in favor of a cruel ordering to the world that has led to further violence and suffering.


                      It’s a dark part of the story, but also an important one to explore. As Miller says, "Eugenic ideology is anything but dead in this country; we are sticky with the stuff.” Jordan was the founding president of Stanford. He also chaired the Eugenics Committee of the American Breeders Association. Those legacies are intertwined, the former providing legitimacy to the latter.


                      And that is all borne of the person—the person whose stubbornness was previously a testament to his ability to push through difficulty, but whose stubbornness was now a form of callousness to both other people and nature itself.


                      This section is a turning point for Miller in her relationship to her subject and to her question to understand order itself. But since I’ve read the book, I’ve been thinking a lot about the underlying endeavor of both Miller and her subject. Of course, it’s not unusual to look for a bit of ourselves in the things we study. If we wanted to get meta about it, you could say we’re doing a little bit of that right now, through this chain of us talking about a book where the author is talking about a man who spent his life talking about fish.


                      And Jordan might have seen a little bit of himself in the fish he studied, or at least in one fish. A spiky, dragon-like fish called “Agonomalus jordani”—the only fish he named for himself. Miller asks, “Why was this the creature David felt reflected him? Was there some sort of confession in the choice? Of some dark side lurking beneath the friendly man so capable of winning hearts, jobs, awards?”

                      喬丹可能在他研究的魚中看到了自己的一點點,或者至少在一條魚中看到了自己。一種叫做“Agonomalus jordani”的尖刺龍狀魚——這是他唯一以自己命名的魚。米勒問道:“為什么大衛覺得這個生物反映了他?選擇中有某種坦白嗎?在這個如此有能力贏得人心、工作和獎項的友好男人身下潛伏著什么黑暗面?

                      In The Book of Eels, Svensson addresses the underlying impulse to see ourselves in other animals. At one point, after reflecting on how we talk about eels being secretive and in pursuit of a home as if those are our own traits made manifest in another animal, Svensson writes, “Of course, I’m anthropomorphizing the eel, forcing it to be more than it is or wishes to be, which may seem somewhat dubious.”


                      What follows is a discussion on our own love of anthropomorphizing animals in the stories we tell, but also at times the need for it. Svensson in particular focuses on the legacy of Rachel Carson, who anthropomorphized nature to help readers feel more connected to it.


                      I loved this discussion in The Book of Eels for how it enriched the book and its weaving of personal and scientific narrative. For something as mysterious as the eel, it’s easy to project onto it because there’s so much space where our own experience can go. And anthropomorphizing allows us a way to consider them in their many hypotheticals. 


                      It’s easier to have this discussion with the subjects of The Book of Eels because you don’t have to have the same lingering question of, “Is the eel a eugenicist?” as you do with a book about a 19th century taxonomist. If anything, the distance helps, obscuring any flaws that we would see if we were looking for our reflection in something closer.

                      與《鰻魚之書》的主題進行這種討論會更容易,因為您不必有同樣揮之不去的問題:“鰻魚是優生學家嗎?” 就像你讀一本關于 19 世紀分類學家的書一樣。如果有的話,距離會有所幫助,它可以掩蓋我們在更近的東西中尋找反射時會看到的任何缺陷。

                      The Epilogue


                      I’ll be honest: I am much more likely to project my own personality onto a cat than a fish, especially an eel. I can’t compare myself to an animal that is willing to undertake such big risks and changes when there are so many couches to nap on and so many meals to wait for. 


                      But I also hadn’t really understood how much I overlooked the eel before I read The Book of Eels, or just how much I’d overlooked the fact that I couldn’t actually define a fish for you until I’d read Why Fish Don’t exist. I also underestimated how much fun it would be to read a book that asks “is the eel a fish?” after having just read a book questioning the very existence of a definition for fish. 


                      But that’s the beauty of these two books together, that they both take on fish from very different levels of specificity and very different notions of experience. And they both find their own meaning in the gaps of our knowledge, and the limits of our exploration.


                      Thanks for joining me this week in Science Book Talk. Next week, join me a move from life in the water to life right underneath our feet.


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